No spark

[altezzaclub]

Something miss-assembled between the key and the points. Could be no power getting there, or I've seen the points earth out in the dizzy when they should be insulated, or, as you expect, the coil has no circuit inside. Here's the diagram- Red is your 'Start' position on the key, it sends 12V straight to your 9V coil. Green is your 'Run" position on the key, when you let the key back from starting it sends 12V through the ballast resistor and that gives 9V to the coil.  Either way, the power flows through the coil primary windings and off to the distributor.

When the points are open no power flows and the capacitor charges up. When the points close the capacitor discharges and the bolt of current allows the coil current to flow, causing a surge in the coil and hence a spark.

 

So, no power at the points- Step back to the coil, undo the negative wire and put a voltmeter on the terminal. Read it with the key on 'ignition', and then read it with the key on 'start'.

Got power?? Put the negative wire back on and go to the distributor. Take off the wire coming from the coil and make sure it has power. Put it back on and make sure the points side on the insulated post has power. If power is getting all the way down there, the condensor is suspect.

No power at coil negative? Take the wires off the coil positive and check the wires, 12V on 'start' wire, 9V on 'run' wire.

No power in either of those?  Back to the key and pull the plastic off the steering column, check power on the wires at the back of the key. Same thing, but 12V on "Start" and 12V on "run".

The answer will be somewhere in there, a poor connection, a broken wire, a mis-wiring when fitting the motor, or some component has died.

 

[Banjo]

This ignition system was working before You changed from auto to manual, by your accounts. Because it is completely dead, I expect, that something has been damaged or changed, during the changeover, particualrly, if You have been under the dash, putting a manual clutch arrangement in.

I'm assuming that the engine cranks OK, when You turn the  ignition key.  

Try this !  The single wire coming out of the distributor, should go to the "negative" terminal of the igniton coil. The "positive" terminal of ignition coil should go to the ballast resistor.  Run a temporary wire from the positive terminal of the ignition coil directly to the postive terminal of the battery.

Try starting the car with the ignition key. If it still does not run, then the culprit can only be the ignition coil or the distributor points or condensor.

We are however assuming that the rotor button, & little spring loaded carbon bush in the distributor cap are OK; as are the HT ignition leads from coil tower to dissy, & from dissy to spark plugs. A good suggestion, is to try starting it, with the bonnet up, but in the dark. If there are any HT (high tension) breakdowns in the coil, or spark plug leads, there should be visible, in the dark.

You will find the issue, if you follow this simple proceedure.

Cheers Banjo

Edited February 5 by Banjo

[ke55rolla.]

 

19 hours ago, Banjo said:

This ignition system was working before You changed from auto to manual, by your accounts. Because it is completely dead, I expect, that something has been damaged or changed, during the changeover, particualrly, if You have been under the dash, putting a manual clutch arrangement in.

I'm assuming that the engine cranks OK, when You turn the  ignition key.  

Try this !  The single wire coming out of the distributor, should go to the "negative" terminal of the igniton coil. The "positive" terminal of ignition coil should go to the ballast resistor.  Run a temporary wire from the positive terminal of the ignition coil directly to the postive terminal of the battery.

Try starting the car with the ignition key. If it still does not run, then the culprit can only be the ignition coil or the distributor points or condensor.

We are however assuming that the rotor button, & little spring loaded carbon bush in the distributor cap are OK; as are the HT ignition leads from coil tower to dissy, & from dissy to spark plugs. A good suggestion, is to try starting it, with the bonnet up, but in the dark. If there are any HT (high tension) breakdowns in the coil, or spark plug leads, there should be visible, in the dark.

You will find the issue, if you follow this simple proceedure.

Cheers Banjo

Thanks banjo. The car was starting and running before the change over to manual and it does still turn over by key.

 

Cheers ke55rolla 

[ke55rolla.]

Hey guys how many volts should the coil have with the key on???

 

Cheers ke55rolla 

 

[altezzaclub]

About 9V, that's what it runs on after the 12V has been through the ballast resistor.

So Ignition key puts out 12V, ballast gets 12V,  ballast gives out 9V, coil gets 9V.  However 'Start' part of key gives out 12V, bypasses ballast resistor and sends 12V straight to coil, but starter motor sucking 300amps drops the 12V to 9V for the 9V coil while cranking.

[ke55rolla.]

59 minutes ago, altezzaclub said:

About 9V, that's what it runs on after the 12V has been through the ballast resistor.

So Ignition key puts out 12V, ballast gets 12V,  ballast gives out 9V, coil gets 9V.  However 'Start' part of key gives out 12V, bypasses ballast resistor and sends 12V straight to coil, but starter motor sucking 300amps drops the 12V to 9V for the 9V coil while cranking.

Ok so I'm only getting 5v out of ballast resistor and 11v in ballast resistor.

 

Cheers ke55rolla 

[Banjo]

Quote

Ok so I'm only getting 5v out of ballast resistor and 11v in ballast resistor.

Under what conditions is that happening ?  Is that with the ignition simply turned on, or with the ignition switch is the start position ?

What You really need is a test light, which is simple to use, & is not complicated, like a multimeter.

Atezzaclub & myself, both have one of these.

You can pick them up on ebay, for around $ 15 - $16 each. It is not just a test light, but has a 12 volt DC digital voltmeter built in.

Did You run a wire from the battery positive terminal to the positive (+ve) terminal of the ignition coil, then try to start the engine, with the ignition coil ?

Have you taken the distrbutor cap off, & turned the engine over, to see if the points are opening & closing. If the rubbing block on the points wears down, then the points will never open.

Cheers Banjo 

 

 

 

[altezzaclub]

"Ok so I'm only getting 5v out of ballast resistor and 11v in ballast resistor. "

That's a bit low for running the car, although it starts on that 11V by bypassing the ballast resistor, so it should fire when cranking.

Try what Banjo suggested, coil positive straight to battery +ve, and run it on the 11V to see. That cuts out a lot of possible problem areas and just deals with coil and distributor. Keep the other wires on the coil +ve, you'll need them for cranking ignition.

Edited February 6 by altezzaclub

[Banjo]

You appear to still be having trouble sourcing the origin of your 'ignition issue"; so sometimes it helps to look at the problem diagramatically, & seperate this circuit from all the other circuits in the car; which sometimes look very complicated, when You look at a automobiles wiring diagram, in a manual.

The ignition, in these early cars are very simple.

The "contact points", in the distributor; which control the whole ignition system;  are depicted on the RHS of the above sketch. When they are open, with the ignition switch off, nothing happens.  There is no power from the battery, & the points, being opened, don't allow any current to flow through the coil.

The real problem with these early systems, was that everything electrical in the car is powered by the one battery. Lights, horn, wipers, radio, fuel guage, temp sensors; ignition system; & the starter motor.  The problem is that nothing draws more power from the battery, than the starter motor. It's not uncommon for the starter motor to draw 100s of amperes, when You place the ignition key in the start position.  On a dark night, turn your headlights on high beam, & then start the car.  You will notice the head lights dim noticably, whilst the starter motor is engaged, & trying to start the car. Some of this dimming of the lights, can be caused by undersized wiring in the lighting circuit, or bad connections.  A battery gets sulphated as it gets older, & when the battery is trying to turn over a cold engine, in Winter; it's not uncommon, for the battery voltage to drop 2 - 3 volts.  Corroded connections at the battery, will also create voltage drops, during cranking, which is why they should be regularly cleaned.

The ignition system, in your Corolla, is very simple.  The cam on the distributor shaft, opens & closes the distributor points, as the engine cranks. When the points are closed, it completes the ignition circuit. Current flows through the coil & "charges up", the primary winding of the coil.  Somewhere around 10-12 degrees before T.D.C. the points open, & the current stops flowing through the primary of the coil. The built up charge; collapses in the coil primary winding, & this generates, & induces; a very high voltage in the secondary of the coil, which is connected to a spark plug via the rotor button, in the distributor cap. The very high voltage jumps across the spark plug tip, & your engine fires into life.

So starting a car is designed, to work, with a fully charged 12 volt battery.  However, if the battery is olde, the climate is cold, the battery voltage is lower than normal, the full battery voltage will not be capable of creating the required spark.  Engineers, were quite aware of this issue, & realised that it is not uncommon, for the battery voltage to drop to say 9 volts, during cranking.  They decided, that they provide a 9 volt ignition coil, instead of 12 volt, so that when the battery voltage drops to 9 volts during cranking, the coil still provides full output. It works perfectly, but there is an issue.  Once the engine starts, & the starter motor stops; the battery voltage will return to 12 volts. Actually, it returns to more than 12 volts, as alternators feed voltages of 12-14 volts to the battery, to keep it fully charged.  12-14 voltages are not good long term, for a coil only designed for 9 volts. It will heat up; & may eventually fail.  So the engineers placed a ballast resistor between the battery 12v & the coil positive terminal, that "drops" about 3 volts approximately, from the 12 volt supply to the coil. So the ballast resistor, is in use, continually, whilst you are driving your car. It is however shorted out, during cranking, by the ignition switch, in the "start" position, so that the 9-10 volt battery voltage during cranking, is fed directly to a 9V coil providing full coil output.

So if you are measuring 9v into the ballast resistor & 5 volts out, that is not enough to drive a 9V coil, assuming the coil fitted is a 9V coil.  This is why I suggested running a wire from the battery terminal to the coil +ve terminal. The other item we have not spoken about are the "points", or correctly, contact points.

These switch a lot of current, & can become pitted, & "pass metal" from one contact to the other. The rubbing block on the points, that follows the four cam lobes on the distributor shaft, do wear & the points get closer & closer together; which is why they need cleaning, & sometimes filing, & the gap resetting, every now & again.

The other item that is critical is the capacitor/condensor, across the contact points. As the points open & the charge on the primary winding collapses, an arc is created across the points. The condensor is there to limit this happening.

If You are only getting 5 volts into the coil, then it is no surprise that the engine won't start. That is why I suggested running a wire directly from the battery +ve terminal, to the +ve terminal of the coil.

If it still won't start, then put some jumper leads to another battery in a running car, & measure these voltages at battery & coil again.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Banjo

[ke55rolla.]

Thanks banjo how many earth wires should there also be mate? 

 

Cheers ke55rolla

 

[ke55rolla.]

The thing that's also confusing us is we have tried everything. I have cleaned all the wires, put straight power from the battery to coil, cleaned up the earth wire from the harness to the body, I have tried a negative wire from the coil to metal and there is still nothing.

 

 

Cheers ke55rolla

[ke55rolla.]

Don't worry guys thanks for all the help along the way in this swap she is now running but sounds like a lumpy cammed v8

[altezzaclub]

So, what was the problem, and how is the ignition timing?

[Banjo]

Has the distributor ever been removed from the car, & then reinserted ? When the timing mark on the edge of the crankshaft pulley, statically lines up with the zero degree mark line on the camshaft sprocket case; when You lift the distributor cap off, is the rotor pointing directly to the terminal for either the HT spark plug lead going to either cylinder no: 1 or 4 ?

So what did you do or find, that changed the engine from "not firing at all", to "running", albeit lumpy ?

Cheers Banjo 

[ke55rolla.]

3 hours ago, Banjo said:

Has the distributor ever been removed from the car, & then reinserted ? When the timing mark on the edge of the crankshaft pulley, statically lines up with the zero degree mark line on the camshaft sprocket case; when You lift the distributor cap off, is the rotor pointing directly to the terminal for either the HT spark plug lead going to either cylinder no: 1 or 4 ?

So what did you do or find, that changed the engine from "not firing at all", to "running", albeit lumpy ?

Cheers Banjo 

So it was ignition points problems and a ground not good enough 

 

3 hours ago, altezzaclub said:

So, what was the problem, and how is the ignition timing?

Igniton timing was way out.

 

 

 

Cheers for the help guys 

 

 

Cheers ke55rolla