4K EFI Test Rig - IAC Valve

[Banjo]

Where in "the world" are You located ?  My guess is the USA ? Is the 4K engine with 7K EFI already in a vehicle ?   Are You doing; or have done a COP conversion ?  Have You already sourced an aftermarket ECU ?  Sorry about all the questions, but I'm trying to create a picture in my mind, where You are at, with this project.

Pictures please, as they tell a thousand words.

P.S.  I've never had a Gilmer drive, but I hear they are pretty noisey ?

P.S.S.   I've just looked up Endeavour Engineering, & they are in Sydney, but are a construction company.

Cheers Banjo

Edited January 29 by Banjo

[kayzz]

I’m located in sydney Australia, the motor isn’t in the car as i’m trying to figure out this issue i’m running Ls1 coils, STM PRO ecu, cam regrind also have gt35 max speeding rods turbo.

i just received the gilmer kit today so i have no idea how it’s going to sound i’ll keep you updated.

cheers 

[Banjo]

There is a growing pool of engine fans, who are resisting the use of the camshaft, for producing really accurate engine timing, despite the fact, that all early engines, worked this way; as the dissy was directly driven from the camshaft. The crank is the by far, the more stable way to create timing information that is constantly changing.  However, there is some resistance, by those that are engaged in some forms of motor sport; like rallying; that the crank pulley trigger disks etc, are too prone to damage from road debri being thrown up into this area.

There is however, another way, which involves placing the trigger wheel, on the rear of the flywheel, where it is totally protected. Funny, when I first started this Timing Accuracy journey; I tried counting starter teeth on the flywheel, until I discovered, there was rarely a flywheel, with the number of teeth, equally divisible into 360 degrees. However, fitting rare earth magnets to a aluminium plate, in behind the flywheel, is a very protected area.

I've just received a large alumium disk, to which I will fit 36 off, rare earth magnets, & it will be installed into the rear of the flywheel. The Hall Effect sensors, will be mounted behind the sump, through the large steel plate, between the bell housing & the rear of the engine block. I've mocked it up, in cardboard, & it will all work well.

Just got to get the disk & flywheel machined, & it will be a very stable & accurate way of producing rock solid crankshaft pulses , for the ECU, & leave the lower front of the engine, complete unmodified & molested.

Cheers Banjo

Edited January 29 by Banjo

[kayzz]

Which cam set up should i go for the dizzy, timing chain cover, fuel pump lobe. 

Is there a way to use SR20 dizzy internals on a 4k dizzy cause i’ve been looking at the sr20 Cam billet dizzy replacements but i just don’t know if there’s a way to do it and i don’t want to mess around with it cause there not cheap at all.

If your willing too sell me your dizzy that would be great. That way i have 1 sensor set up for the sequential firing.

[Banjo]

The bulk of the Denso K series distributors were quite small in diameter, as they only had points in them; & certainly wouldn't have the room, to transfer the tooth metal wheels across, from the MR2 dissies, & similar; even if You did have access to the lathe, & cutting equipment to make it all go together.  The exception was the Bosch dissy, from K Series engines, which was much larger in diameter , than the Denso model, which is quite "narrow".  It is the Bosch one, I am going to try to fit a flying magnet disk inside.

My dissy, is not for sale. The one I depicted, does not even belong to me. I have been assisting a friend of mine, here on RollaClub.  Even if You decide to not use a gutted dissy; You will still need to make up a dummy shaft & cap, to fit in the dissy location point; to drive the oil pump, directly below the distributor.

Olde K series Denso dissy cut down, & a dished Welch plug, sealing the top of the shaft.

Have you considered just putting a commercially available trigger wheel, on the front crankshaft pulley ?

Cheers Banjo

Edited January 30 by Banjo

[altezzaclub]

"Which cam set up should i go for the dizzy, timing chain cover, fuel pump lobe. "

I'd say dizzy Kayzz, the same way Banjo is doing it. You need some teeth or some magnets to count for crank position and a single tooth or magnet for a cam position. A stripped-down 4K dizzy that can carry a steel tooth at the bottom and an alloy wheel at the top.

Here's your single tooth, but you need it at the bottom-

It can be simple in shape, any round steel bush that can be fixed on a 4K shaft with a tooth sticking out.

You could possible cut the base plate away and leave a bit sticking out. That Hall sensor goes in through the side of the dizzy, and there's your cam sensor.

The top Hall effect needs magnets set in an alloy disc unless you can find a 24-toothed wheel. Banjo has a Hall sensor reading the 24tooth wheel in the 4AGE, so they can do it, but the magnets in an alloy disc seemed a good way to go too.

Its really a matter of what you can fabricate up. The only downside of using the dizzy will be at light throttle transitions, where the motor goes from driving the car to being on over-run, and any play in the cam chain gives a few degrees difference in reading.

[Banjo]

Hi Kayzz,

                 I don't have the luxury of a machine shop, or even a small lathe (but I do wish); but there are lots of things You could try, with basic hand tools.

The photo above is of a K Series dissy; although it is the wider one, originating from Bosch, rather than Denso.  You can see from the picture; that once You strip out the top plate, & all that is mounted on it; it gives You plenty of room, to create, a single protrusion, to create a CAS pulse, with a multitooth wheel above it.

This was an experiment I tried a few years ago. I mounted a single "rod" rare earth magnet, on the spinning plate.

Over the top of that, I mounted a piece of printed circuit board, with four (4) off Hall Effect sensor elements, that picked up the pole of the magnet, spinning below the circuit board.  It worked well, & operated like as an "electronic rotor button"; as it switched four seperate ignition coils, on & off, to their respective spark plugs.  I ran it in my KE-30 for about 6 months, & it worked perfectly, in co-ordination, with a Jaycar programable ignition module.

The simplest way, would be as Altezzaclub has suggested, with a multi-toothed wheel, mounted above the single tooth CAS tooth.

If you've already got a K series dissy; You just need a later model dissy, from a 4AGE or MR2; that you can grab the toothed wheels, & fit them to the original K series dissy.

Using the dissy arrangement, means You don't have to fabricate a dummy shaft, to drive the oil pump.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Banjo

[Banjo]

H Kayzz,

                I've been thinking about your issue & ignition/distributor needs, & what Altezzaclub has advised.

Have a look at this link, here on the RollaClub website.

https://www.rollaclub.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tech:Engine/K_Series/Electronic_distributor

This is the base distributor You require, which is larger in diameter, than the other 5K electronic dissies.

The chances of You picking up, one of these, in good condition; is about the same chances of winning the lottery.

These were specifically manufactured for the 5K engines, utilised on Toyota forklifts. 

I have noticed on ebay, that there appears to be a replica of these dissies, produced; although I haven't been able to find a local ebay seller, stocking them in Australia. It would have to be purchased from an ebay seller in China. 

The reason these have come to be; is that the 5K Toyota engine, is greatly "prized", in S.E. Asian countries; but particularly, Malaysia & the Phillipines, where they fit them in mini Jeeps, & in Malaysia they power racing water canoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbGLWHxeru0

One is going to set You back, about AUD 300, but You will get a base component with new bearings, cogs & seals; which will cost You money if You purchase or find a second hand one; & then have to source all the bits to recondition it; even before converting to a CAS & cam/crank trigger wheel. 

ebay 5K Electronic Distributor for 5K Forklifts

Hope that gives You another alternative.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

Edited January 31 by Banjo

[altezzaclub]

Sold!! To the man in the black hat..

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/284012371846?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=284012371846&targetid=2370955762951&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=2036&poi=&campaignid=21766114506&mkgroupid=168279963077&rlsatarget=pla-2370955762951&abcId=10047372&merchantid=5511227270&gad_source=5&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrMjVxsGfiwMVjSStBh2xqxmcEAQYASABEgJCTPD_BwE

The same as I had when I re-vamped the springs inside to make it advance faster.

[kayzz]

3 hours ago, altezzaclub said:

Thanks for the help i appreciate it, the only thing is i don’t know how to make it i’m hopeless at this stuff thats why i’m trying to find something to buy. 

[kayzz]

I’ve given it a try but i need help with something am i meant to take off everything and just leave the shaft or? 

do i cut the black parts off?

 

cheers 

[Banjo]

Hi Kayzz,

                That must be a new dissy, that You've pulled to pieces, as it is pretty clean ?

It is looking like You might have to await One Six industries, to produce their suitable dissy, for your modified 4K-U engine.

Your STM Pro ECU, will need two (2) electronic inputs. A CAS single pulse, & a stream of crank or camshaft pulses, to provide crankshaft speed & position.

The aftermarket physically large dissy I saw on the internet, suitable for Toyota forklifts, fitted with 5K petrol engines, is not what it seems. Because it labels it as suitable for Toyota forklifts with electronic ignition, I "assumed wrongly", that Toyota had fitted an ECU to these later model fork lifts, & therefore needed a upgraded distributor, with CAS & trigger wheel outputs.

Wrong; I was fooled by the apparent size of the distributor, assuming it had a CAS & trigger wheel, of some kind enclosed. 

When I look at the picture again, I realised it has a vacuum bellows on it, which indicated it has mechanical automatic advance/retard therein.  On top of that the lead coming out of the distributor has a connector with only 2 wires, when I blow up the picture.  That indicates, that it does not have an inbuilt CAS & trigger wheels. It would have 4 wires, if it produced CAS & trigger wheel pulses.  Sorry, to get your hopes up, but it is back to square one, or await for One Six Industries, to produce one.

Alternatively, You can build a simple CAS signal into the dissy you have, as Alteezaclub has suggested, but the crank trigger pulses would maybe best delivered by a crank mounted toothed trigger wheel, or maybe flywheel, as I have also mentioned.

I haven't looked up the specifications for the STM Pro ECU, to see whether, it can accept crank trigger position pulses, generated by the camshaft.  Have You confirmed that previously ?  I have no experience whatsoever, with this brand of ECU.

P.S.  Did You buy this STM Pro ECU kit new or second hand ?  I read somethwhere about these being in a kit form, that You have to build yourself. 

My current suggestion is; that whichever way, You ultimately go; You will need a CAS signal, if You are set on running this engine, in sequential injection & ignition.  You should convert this dissy in your hand, to a CAS pulse output device only.  All You need to do, is follow Altezzaclub's suggestions, of creating a single tooth off the main shaft, & pick it up with an appropriate Hall effect sensor.

You could cut all those pins off on the spinning base plate; including the centre shaft, & fit a rare earth magnet, with it's South pole facing vertically, at the top.  Then refit the plate, with the two (2) screws in the case, & drill a hole in the plate, in line with the magnet pole, to mount the Hall Effect sensor vertically through the plate. The Hall Effect sensors are cheap & available, & most sense a south pole, & are mounted in a threaded tube, so are easy to adjust, so you have a gap of 1-2mm between maget south pole face, & hall effect sensor face.

N.B.   Don't try to cut any of those pins off, without removing the shaft assembly from the disributor body.  You will have to remove the roll-pin, in the "gear", at the very bottom of the shaft, so You can push the shaft up, & out of the distributor.

Alternatively, You could cut off 2 off the three steel posts, & leave the longest & furtherest from the centre, & sense it with a Hall Effect sensor, that sensor iron metal, rather than a magnet pole, like below.

ebay listing for Hall Effect Sensor

 

Hall Effect Sensor

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Banjo

[altezzaclub]

I was thinking the Hall Effect sensor on the pin at 2o'clock, like this

Chop the plate down to just an arm holding the post and mount the sensor through the wall near it. You may not even need the post, just the end of the arm swinging past might be enough to activate the Hall sensor. Banjo will know!

That gives you a cam position signal to tell the ECU that #1 is the next cylinder to fire.

The crank position signal is the hard one, the more teeth you have to read the more resolution the computer has. So the 4AGE uses 24, but others use 36 and some use less. Finding what is essentially a gear wheel to mount above the cam sensor will be the hard part, either find a steel one from a distributor, or make one out of an alloy disc and put magnets in it. You can see the factory one in that image of the distributor I posted above, lots of gear teeth close together.

That disc gets mounted on the shaft further up, and that Hall sensor goes in the side or through the lid.

Manufacturers used this idea for a while in the 80s and 90s, a cam & a crank sensor built into a distributor and a rotor and plug leads on top. Those are the dizzys you want to look inside at a wreckers, the later ones did away with a distributor altogether and ran Coil Over Plug systems with remote sensors.

Here's a Camry one from then, I've never looked at one, but it has the 24tooth wheel in there, the part 19235 picture.

https://www.amayama.com/en/catalogs/toyota/camry/3-sedan-right-v30-1990-2407/engine-fuel-system-and-tools-1/distributor-34

4AFE motors, the most common engine back then, have them too. Wouldn't it be nice if this shaft and gears fitted easily.

$40 buys a 2JZ one, somewhere in the world.

https://wardautoracing.com/products/2jz-ge-distributor

Otherwise, its alloy disc and magnets time.

Edited February 1 by altezzaclub

[Banjo]

Hi Kayzz, 

                 How are you going getting all your bits together for this engine ?

Would love to see some pictures of the kit, if You can post them.

Cheers Banjo

Edited February 2 by Banjo

[altezzaclub]

OK, this bit is interesting-

"In the Bosch one I have here, the shaft dia. below the plate, is 12.44mm.  Above the plate is 10.88mm. "

The video was a 4AF distributor, cheap as chips and extremely common, which is why it would have a different construction to the 4AGE one you have. However if you press the wheels off a 4AF distributor you can re-size the holes to press them onto a 4K distributor, is that what you found. Take the 10mm holes out to 10.88 & 12.44mm.

If the engineering works, that would be the simplest way to make an ECU cam/crank sensor package for a 4K. Otherwise, its magnets and an alloy disc.