Shifting

[B.L.Z.BUB]

toe/clutch, heel. repeat.

[love ke70]

there was a good discussion on this a year or two ago on scooby forum, while mostly its a waste of time, there was a bloke who could double clutch faster than you can blink, and his gear changes were quicker than by using the synchros, but he was a brilliant driver and i think it may have been a dog-box in his car....

[SLO-030]

But but but.....can i double clutch my KE70 with a 4K-C and 3spd auto???????????????? I just wanna be a drift god....

[sammo[RL]]

http://www.volocars.com/2003-mitsubishi-ec...tible-c-687.htm

 

Australia says NO...

[Taz_Rx]

there was a good discussion on this a year or two ago on scooby forum, while mostly its a waste of time, there was a bloke who could double clutch faster than you can blink, and his gear changes were quicker than by using the synchros, but he was a brilliant driver and i think it may have been a dog-box in his car....

 

Do some research into what a dog-box (maybe search for dog-engagement) is and how it works and you might find out that the "scooby guy" wasn't such a good shifter as he made himself out to be. :rolls:

[orangeLJ]

good ol' 3 speed, non syncro boxes in early holdens are great fun to learn how to change gears PROPERLY haha.

 

you really feel spoilt when you get back into a syncro-boxed car.

[Karllos]

To me double clutching is utterly pointless going up gears because you are by releasing the clutch spinning the gearbox faster than what you need it to for the next gear, thus making the 'box/synchros do more work.

 

On the other hand going down gears makes my shifts 10 times quicker than not double clutching, by force of spinning the gearbox faster with revs to match it all together and grab the gear you want much quicker. High speed applications it becomes more noticeable.

 

Having said all that i only do it when needed not just cruising around the place.

 

Karl.

[Felix]

On the other hand going down gears makes my shifts 10 times quicker than not double clutching, by force of spinning the gearbox faster with revs to match it all together and grab the gear you want much quicker. High speed applications it becomes more noticeable.

 

I just blip the throttle on downchanges to revmatch, especially when the car is cold. I generally drive barefooted in my ke15, allows me to big toe/little toe easier.

 

No need to double clutch, unless you have a car with no synchros. My old EH Holden had a 3 speed crashbox with non-syncho first. You had to either come to a complete stop to put it back into first, or double clutch it.

[Hiro Protagonist]

To me double clutching is utterly pointless going up gears because you are by releasing the clutch spinning the gearbox faster than what you need it to for the next gear, thus making the 'box/synchros do more work.

 

On the other hand going down gears makes my shifts 10 times quicker than not double clutching, by force of spinning the gearbox faster with revs to match it all together and grab the gear you want much quicker. High speed applications it becomes more noticeable.

 

Having said all that i only do it when needed not just cruising around the place.

 

Karl.

 

You sure you're not confusing double-clutching with heel-and-toe? Double-clutching requires pushing the clutch pedal in, shifting the gearbox into neutral, letting the clutch pedal out again, matching the engine revs of the gear you need to change in to, pushing the clutch back in and then changing into the gear you want. Heel-and-toe is "blipping" the throttle in the middle of a single-clutch gearchange whilst on the brakes (hence the "heel-and-toe" as traditionally your toe was on the brake pedal and your heel was on the accelerator) and the engine is free-spinning (ie clutch is disengaged).

 

Double-clutching on a fully synchro-ed box (ie pretty much all cars made in the last 20-30 years) is useless and slower than heel-and-toe. I've learnt to be able to shift gears cleanly and at high rpm/throttle in the AE102 before the clutch pedal has even hit the firewall, so already the motion of the clutch pedal is the slowest part of the system - a double-clutch would require two such movements, and thus would be even longer. Essentially you "punch" the clutch pedal in at a split second before you shift gears, if you time it right then your foot and the pedal essentially bounce off the firewall (or the end of the pedal stroke, or whenever you choose to pull-out) with no time spent with the clutch fully disengaged and the pedal motionless.

[Karllos]

I just blip the throttle on downchanges to revmatch, especially when the car is cold. I generally drive barefooted in my ke15, allows me to big toe/little toe easier.

 

No need to double clutch, unless you have a car with no synchros. My old EH Holden had a 3 speed crashbox with non-syncho first. You had to either come to a complete stop to put it back into first, or double clutch it.

 

I know theres no need i just have always rev matched and only do it when i need a gear quicker. One of those lil things that i like doing :rolls:

 

OOO! good example, an AW11 with an E58 'Box struggles and is notchy (just how the box is) start double clutching and it makes life so much easier!

 

A mate had no 2nd gear syncro in his ceff and if you didnt double clutch PERFECTLY it would have a very hard time getting in.

[godlovesugly]

You sure you're not confusing double-clutching with heel-and-toe? Double-clutching requires pushing the clutch pedal in, shifting the gearbox into neutral, letting the clutch pedal out again, matching the engine revs of the gear you need to change in to, pushing the clutch back in and then changing into the gear you want. Heel-and-toe is "blipping" the throttle in the middle of a single-clutch gearchange whilst on the brakes (hence the "heel-and-toe" as traditionally your toe was on the brake pedal and your heel was on the accelerator) and the engine is free-spinning (ie clutch is disengaged).

 

Double-clutching on a fully synchro-ed box (ie pretty much all cars made in the last 20-30 years) is useless and slower than heel-and-toe. I've learnt to be able to shift gears cleanly and at high rpm/throttle in the AE102 before the clutch pedal has even hit the firewall, so already the motion of the clutch pedal is the slowest part of the system - a double-clutch would require two such movements, and thus would be even longer. Essentially you "punch" the clutch pedal in at a split second before you shift gears, if you time it right then your foot and the pedal essentially bounce off the firewall (or the end of the pedal stroke, or whenever you choose to pull-out) with no time spent with the clutch fully disengaged and the pedal motionless.

 

 

thanks for clearing that up Hiro. I always knew what heal and toe was and I just assumed when people said "double clutching" thats what they meant. Double clutching sounds like double the work so I can't see how it would be quicker unless you had a gearbox that needs it... I've driven my ke25 with no clutch (the cable snapped) before and I definitley didnt master it (a blown T50 proves I suck) but I did notice that if you shift at certain revs it shifts so quick and smooth its crazy..... taking off from a stand still was another matter though.

[love ke70]

I just blip the throttle on downchanges to revmatch, especially when the car is cold. I generally drive barefooted in my ke15, allows me to big toe/little toe easier.

 

No need to double clutch, unless you have a car with no synchros. My old EH Holden had a 3 speed crashbox with non-syncho first. You had to either come to a complete stop to put it back into first, or double clutch it.

 

 

sounds my patrol ute tryna get it back in first, only thats meant to be double synchro'd in first :rolls:

[philbey]

If done right it shouldn't put any more load on the synros?

 

 

i was under the imprssion that if you match the revs well (say 3rd to 2nd, having to blip it up a bit) then the synchos don't have anything to synchronise. thus they arent doing any work.

 

When you shift without clutch you'll probably notice the hardest bit is disengaging the first gear, not engaging the next gear.

 

That's because the dogs are fully meshed and you're dragging them across one another under load, so the friction is high. You'll wear the dogs out faster this way.

 

As you come off the throttle though the load shifts from one face of the dog to the other, you need to disengage at that exact moment.

[ke70dave]

yeah i understand that.

 

gota jump off the throttle at the same time of putting it into neutral. so there is little to no load on the gears.

 

and don't let the revs drop tooooo fast when you go for the next gear, or its a bit clunky on the way in. which is the same deal, tryint to match them up so that when they mesh there isnt any load on the gears.

 

do you know what is going on in a gearbox when gears magically "fall out" of gear?

 

my mates old celica used to be terrible in 2th, was forever going into neutral by itself (resulting in the engine hitting the limiter if you didnt notice in time). had to hold it in by hand all the time.

[love ke70]

thats the detent springs not holding it in