3t-gte Or 4age Into A Ke35

[greenmac80]

mine was def a maunal and the x member was from a manual using 2 bolts. 1 either side. and fits just fine.

also another member on here has a ke35 4agze also uses a standard ae71 gearbox x member for his 16v conversion.

[AE25]

well i hope that people go back and edit their information if they've been corrected coz there's alot of false, vague or conflicting info in this thread.

E7 and E3 engine crossmembers are definately different in width.

proof in pic below.

 

comparing 4age and 3tgte is like apple vs orange. two very different power plants. both will be fun to drive, 4age will handle better, 3tgte will fry tyres easier. if you pop an engine, i know which one i'd rather find a replacement for!

if you ultimately want to have a turbo engine, imo start with a 4agze. if you like the oldschool factor or 8v twincam, go 3tgte.

in my experience.. the 4agze and 3tgte produce similar power when similar turbo's and upgrades are used even though the 3t has more capacity. but the 4agze has the benefit of better weight, age and parts availability which makes it a better base to start on and also more responsive when driven.

Any 3tgte (unless its already been rebuilt) will need a quick freshen up so it doesn't piss it's guts out. try start with a complete engine/gearbox/ecu loom package therefore cheaper in the long run. the 4agze turbo will need quite a few aftermarket parts $$$ to make it run and be reliable, like turbo conversion parts and w55 gearbox and bellhousing if you're making decent power. whereas the 3tgte is all there, but usually needs a few repairs, especially the exhaust manfold which tend to crack.

 

also with regards to 16v vs 20v.. if you completely remove the 20v dizzy and run a crank angle sensor on the front with aftermarket ecu, there's still an extra 10mm(?) of head hanging over the bellhousing.. but in a ke30 using ae71 gearbox crossmember with box bolted up.. does this positioning make the 20v head interfere with the ke3 firewall still?

 

just to clarify when saying a 16v will fit but a 20v won't using the ae71 gearbox xmember, you had to make new engine mounts to move the 20v further forwards to clear the dizzy, which meant the gearbox also moves forwards and the original gearbox xmember now wont line up. but if you made the 20v head clear the firewall then it will not have an effect on using ae71 gearbox xmember.

i don't think there's a difference between ae70 and ke70 manual gearbox xmembers either.. they both run a k50 box. is there a difference between ae70 and ae71 gearbox xmembers? (k50 vs t50)

 

also no one has mentioned that using a t50 or k50 from ae70, ae71, ae85, ae86 will have the wrong shifter position out of the gearbox tunnel. so either need to cut the tunnel hole further rearwards and modify the center console if you have one... or find a ke55 or kp61 k50 tail housing to fit the ae70/ae85 k50.

a ta22 T50 5speed could possibly be used with a spacer ring on the ae71/ae86 4age bellhousing.. this will put the shifter in the right spot and mate to the original manual ke30 driveshaft. using the 22spline T50 will require driveshaft mods.

 

if mounting a 3tgte with a t50 box, the 20spline t50 from earlier te71/te72/corona/celica/carina etc will mate to the ke30 manual driveshaft. but the later 1983+ 22spline t50 requires custom driveshaft. using a w55 with the 3tgte has a larger 21spine driveshaft which is same spline as alot of toyota auto driveshafts.. but you'll probably have to shorten one. and in this case it'd be better to find a stronger driveshaft (bigger universals) to be more reliable with the 1800 turbo. like rt132 with a w40/w50 box.

oh geez.. and what about diff mods.. ke30 diffs aren't exactly 4age or 3tgte proof.

 

[cuzzo]

Way too much mis-information in this thread!

[greenmac80]

ok jst a question for you AE25 if you reckon to get rid of the cam angle sensor how would you propose sealing off the gaping hole you'd have in the back of the head?

 

also i tried to bolt up my 20v with the standard g/box x member and it worked just... but i didn't have a cover over the sensor wheel so once you add the cover it wouldn't work. i have tthe photos of the damage i did to my firewall trying to jam it in there.

 

cuzzo: if you have definiative answers that cannot be proven wrong then please clarify. i'm not tryin to be smart, just asking as you have a good knowledge of 16v Ke30 etc.

[philbey]

Just a note - 3TGTE's are tricky to get parts for. But it's a sick engine, my mate's hauls arse.

[AE25]

ok jst a question for you AE25 if you reckon to get rid of the cam angle sensor how would you propose sealing off the gaping hole you'd have in the back of the head?

 

also i tried to bolt up my 20v with the standard g/box x member and it worked just... but i didn't have a cover over the sensor wheel so once you add the cover it wouldn't work. i have tthe photos of the damage i did to my firewall trying to jam it in there.

 

so how much gap was there without the 20v dizzy greenmac80?

 

there are a few options for removing dizzy.

like making a round alloy disk to fit in the hole, then weld it in so its flush or below surface.

or a custom made pressure plug.. like on page3 on this cataloge (1.3mb). it has two halves that screw together, there is taper on one and a c-clip around it that expands outwards to lock onto the bore + an oring to seal on the bore. these are usually used when you can only get to the hole from one end.

or just turn a barrel shaped thing with oring groove on outside, and a head on one end then use a washer and a bolt thru the other end to hold it in place.

if there's space on the firewall to have something bolt on the head, you could cut down the 20v dizzy housing so that the mount is there and then plug the hole up the center so it doesn't leak. or

make something custom that bolts on and plugs the hole.

Edited November 30, 2009 by AE25

[SLO-030]

you could cut down the 20v dizzy housing so that the mount is there and then plug the hole up the center so it doesn't leak.

 

 

My exact thought when i read this thread yesterday.

 

Remove Dizzy internals and shaft.

 

Cut the top half of the dizzy off, flush with the securing plate/tab.

 

Weld the bore where the dizzy shaft once resided.

 

Machine or Grind/sand the protruding weld flush for a clean look.

 

Personally i would run a balancer mounted trigger wheel and pick up as opposed to the nissan style cam belt cover CAS as IMO they look like SHIT

[greenmac80]

so how much gap was there without the 20v dizzy greenmac80?

 

there are a few options for removing dizzy.

like making a round alloy disk to fit in the hole, then weld it in so its flush or below surface.

or a custom made pressure plug.. like on page3 on this cataloge (1.3mb). it has two halves that screw together, there is taper on one and a c-clip around it that expands outwards to lock onto the bore + an oring to seal on the bore. these are usually used when you can only get to the hole from one end.

or just turn a barrel shaped thing with oring groove on outside, and a head on one end then use a washer and a bolt thru the other end to hold it in place.

if there's space on the firewall to have something bolt on the head, you could cut down the 20v dizzy housing so that the mount is there and then plug the hole up the center so it doesn't leak. or

make something custom that bolts on and plugs the hole.

 

 

if you look through the photos in my thread it gives you an idea. mind you the photos don't show the sensor with a cover on it as i didn't own one at the time.

but without COMPLETELY removing everything dizzy related and pluggin the hole there is no way to use the standard g box x member out of an ae71...(without mods)

 

welding a plate in there most likely won't work as a cap has to bolt down at the back of the head. so the o ring seal stuff needs to be the go.

 

a lot of people wouldn't think of that option to remove it entirely because then you will have to move the sensor somewhere else still even more stuffing about.

 

one option is a trigger wheel on the harmonic balancer but SamQ has informed me that that will induce 'batch fuel fire'?

causing up to a 15% increase in fuel consumption... i myself will probably try and plug the hole now, (as i never thought of it) but still gotta try and find a way to get a firing signal.

 

i guess when trying to let people know how to do the 20v conversion you always try to keep it as simple as you can... so this is probably why i've never thought of doing it nor have i ever seen it done.

[oh what a nissan feeling!]

Quite a few motors out there use the crank angle sensor on the cam,

 

have seen this retro fitted before to an sr20ve, this would allow sequential fire.

[AE25]

what I'm doing (about to do) is use the late 7afe oil pump of which has a factory crank angle sensor fitted in the oil pump housing. you can't use the 7afe lower cam belt pulley obviously as it is larger diameter to suit the 7afe single type cam pulley.. but i've designed up a pulley that has the 20v 18tooth wheel, but also has the 36 tooth ignition trigger wheel on the rear of it. (I'm a toolmaker by trade so can make this stuff at work). I'm using aftermarket ecu too though. I'm not sure how many teeth the 20v dizzy has in it.. but you could make something up that mimic's the original dizzy signal but runs off the crank, so you can still use the factory ecu. then run a 2nd vf sensor off the front of the exhaust cam pulley with a suitable trigger wheel to signal firing position. all is hidden under the covers so it'll leave people guessing! kinda over the top though. you could mount a dizzy off the front of the exhaust cam and run the leads backwards to get the right firing order. seen that done.

[SLO-030]

I like the oil pump idea. I personally think CAS hanging off the front of the engine looks crap.

[Sam_Q]

as with what Luc commented running the crank angle sensor off the crank is problematic because the ecu can't know which piston is on the compression stroke and which is on the exhaust stroke. So you have to run the fuel in batch fire. This is why there is a 15% power loss. I have a wolf generic toothed gear and sensor if anyone wants to go down this road though.

[greenmac80]

what I'm doing (about to do) is use the late 7afe oil pump of which has a factory crank angle sensor fitted in the oil pump housing. you can't use the 7afe lower cam belt pulley obviously as it is larger diameter to suit the 7afe single type cam pulley.. but i've designed up a pulley that has the 20v 18tooth wheel, but also has the 36 tooth ignition trigger wheel on the rear of it. (I'm a toolmaker by trade so can make this stuff at work). I'm using aftermarket ecu too though. I'm not sure how many teeth the 20v dizzy has in it.. but you could make something up that mimic's the original dizzy signal but runs off the crank, so you can still use the factory ecu. then run a 2nd vf sensor off the front of the exhaust cam pulley with a suitable trigger wheel to signal firing position. all is hidden under the covers so it'll leave people guessing! kinda over the top though. you could mount a dizzy off the front of the exhaust cam and run the leads backwards to get the right firing order. seen that done.

 

 

haha see this is what i mean.... thats an awesome idea but to most people attempting the conversion won't do that. easier jst to mod the gearbox mount or make a new one..

but in saying this... wanna make me one of those pulleys?????

[Sam_Q]

be careful, apparently modding the pulley can cause crank failures depending on how its done.

 

http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info...harmonic-damper

Edited December 4, 2009 by Sam_Q

[beerhead]

This sounds exactly the way I'm planning to run a CAS on my 3S - later model oil pump with a built in trigger wheel and a bolt on the exhaust cam wheel to fire a standard toyota electric dizzy pickup hiding behind the rear upper timing cover. I thought about the balance issue and figure if I mirror the bolt on the other side and have it 3 mm shorter than the trigger bolt the balance will be very close to perfect.