Whats Under Your Bonnet ?

[Doogs]

I've already told you this once in this thread. a 3k, 3k BP, or 4k head on a 5k will drop CR. FFS do a search on dished piston vs flat tops. :P

 

The mix of 3/4/5k parts is to convert to solid lifters, do some searching on that too! :S

 

Sorry, my bad i just re-read your last post :y:

 

When looking at pistons i was mainly hoping for flat-tops or

maybe even domed. This engine will be naturally aspirated for

a long time, so i will end up running around 10:1 compression.

(although compression is still to be determined, depending on

which cam i end up choosing)

 

I am still unsure on whether i will end up changing to solid lifters, because

i have been getting mixed mesages about them.

Some people i have talked to say that the hydro lifters have a bad tendency

to ''pump up'', while others say i won't be revving high enough for it to be a problem.

[Doogs]

I believe 3K, 3K bigport head on 5K block bumps up the compression ratio.

I think the standard port size on a 3K head is roughly 28mm and for bigport roughly 30mm.

Best bet about if you can put bigger valves into a 5K head would be to see a mechanic. Again nothing is impossible, it just costs money.

 

The reason why i was asking if a 5k head has space for bigger valves is because

of a comment made in an article in the faq.

 

In the ''how to build a tuff k motor'' thread 'superjamie' suggests that a

4k would benifit greatly from bigger valves. He then proceeds in saying

that ''this is the big restriction with a 5k''

This comment put the doubt in my mind and so i decided it would be good to check.

[Ke20 King]

well i got a 4k and am about to turn it into efi using the 4ke setup from a starlet from nz then am planing on turboing it using a turbo from a hibitsa (i think thats how you spell it) motorbike. not the biggest turbo and probably spool straght away. but mine wont look as good as taz_rx set up he is a legand.

[Redwarf]

How much work was needed to get the 4k crank into a 3k?

 

Could i have a rough price for what all that cost you ?

(i am still working out budgets and working out how much i can afford to do)

 

Thanks

 

Build a 4K. It's easier. I did it to stay in the class that I wanted to. The conrods foul on the sides of the bore with a 4K crank, so we scalloped the bores, and also massaged the sump for the same reason.

 

I'm semi sponsered by my engine builder so although the whole motor was well into the 4 figure territory, it was "worth" a great deal more due to the development that went into it that I didn't pay for. For example, six different types of piston were tried before settling on the ones we ended up with.

 

Budget and this type of build are not two words you would use together.

[Doogs]

So................what have the rest of you got ?

 

And, does anyone know about those valve/port sizes, and

if there is space for bigger valves in the 5k?

 

Many thanks :'(

[Felix]

And, does anyone know about those valve/port sizes, and

if there is space for bigger valves in the 5k?

 

Ok here is a rundown on the valve port sizes for different k series heads:

 

K bigport: 30-31mm inlet ports. 34mm/28mm in/ex valves

3k bigport: 30-31mm inlet ports. 36mm/29mm in/ex valves

3k/4k smallport: 24-25mm inlet ports. 36mm/29mm in/ex valves.

4k/5k dished piston: 27-28mm inlet ports. 36/29mm in/ex valves.

 

In the ''how to build a tuff k motor'' thread 'superjamie' suggests that a

4k would benifit greatly from bigger valves. He then proceeds in saying

that ''this is the big restriction with a 5k''

This comment put the doubt in my mind and so i decided it would be good to check.

 

Airflow through the valves is the determining factor on how much a head can flow. There is not that much meat between the valves to be able to enlarge them very much. What superjamie is getting at, was that for the increase in capacity of a 5k over a 4k, there isn't the same percentage increase in valve area.

 

Also note there wasn't an increase the distance between the valve centers when the capacity went from the 4k to 5k.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Felix

[camerondownunder88]

MM lets see.

 

Under the bonnet of my daily a 3K running 496,000KM. Revs to 7 soem days and record is 5.6L of fuel used in a119km long trip to work (that is return) in Brisbane at 6am. That was 2 weeks ago. If I use the liquid noise pedal more well it will dwindle to over 9L used..lol

 

My KE15.

Picked up a rebuilt 5K never run sitting in a car (got the car to) for $30. Guy just lost interest. Has stock springs (will explain why more down page) and slight bore ACL shallow dish pistons shaved head (200psi per cyclinder now. Stock is 159 PSI that is also pending K motor some differ). and a tidy up. Went well while I ran it in the Ke30 now it is in the ke15 about to get going again. It now has K-B twin carbies, pacemaker extractors thermo fan smaller altornator, solid lifters (4K-u Prods and 3F Toyota lifters).

 

Now...While I work on getting the KE15 on the road I am building another 5K. This one I plan to be good on economy, reliable, but quick and fun at the same time. So far I am collecting parts. I am in no rush to do this so I can save as much money as possible.

 

Now I got a free 5K block. This motor was rebuilt and then a new piston cracked. sat in a car till I got a hold of it. But was stripped as I needed the block posted from NT to QLD. That cost $75. This I have acid dipped, cleaned threads witha tap, and be burred internals of it from casting, cleaned out oil galleries, also got best studs for sump I had installed etc so jsut cleaned it up.

 

I got a oil pump out of a 4K. NOW oil pumps in a van 5K are different to sedan K motors so you need a sedan one to run a sedan pump. I have lapped the pump to really tight clearences. Messured up about 5 different oil pumps I collected and got the body that had the smallest internal cavity size still, biggest outer gear and biggest inner gear and shaft. Then it made the pump tighter and man it pumps oil doing the hand pump test OH oil flows really well. With a 2.5mm shim. Also I polished the pump. Cost free. Also lock wired pump up and will lock wire it into the motor so no chance of it coming apart..LOL

 

Next I got a 4K-U running motor donated to me. These push rods are needed to run 3F lifters in a 5K with out having to mod your rocker gear (to use normal 4K-c rods you need to mod your rocker gear). So out of this motor I got conrods, crank, flywheel, push rods, rocker gear, dished piston head, oil filter housing, sump.

 

All those parts sump acid dipped baffles weld in at work and currently working on getting it chrome plated so it is slippery (also looks good) so oil slides easy in it. Cost free metal, free welding, mate owns electroplating shop so free chrome dipping.

 

Oil filter housing polished it, drilled out the holes larger so it flows more. DONE free

 

Conrdos. Will get ARP stud kit (about $80) and I will linish them and shot peen them. I can linish for free and possibly get shot peening at work for free pending so again strong and free. I didn't touch the big end or gudgeon pin end as they were all still in spec and flat and tru so stock rods are good.

 

Crank. So far just cleaned up. hoping to knife edge. We also do this at work so if I get spare time that will be done. Then all I have to pay for is balance.

 

Flywheel. Got faced at work. sending to re builder to get it balanced to a heavy duty clutch so it is nice.

 

Head off 4K-u. Now dished piston motors have HEAPS better combustion chambers so I am sticking with this instead of using my 3K bigport head. As dish piston heads are slightly larger ports so more air will flow in but it wont have an as low velocity like 3K big ports (as you need some velocity there. This can give more torque having higher velocity) So that is why I'm using this head. I will let an engine shop do this but I plan to polish exhaust ports, just clean up intake, new guides, 3 angle valve seat job and polish combustion chambers. I am going to run a SC14 so I will polish my combustion chambers as I'm going to run dished pistons with dished head and possibly slightly higher CR than stock so if i can limit carbon build up I get less chance of pinging.

 

Valve springs. Well stock 3K-C runs 70.1lbs pressure. This revs to 6600RPM stock. 3K-B got 77lbs springs and can rev to 7500RPM stock. So you don't need super hard springs to rev a K motor much harder. Now all K motor with hydro lifters got 77.2lbs springs also. So if you run stock hydro 5K springs with your motor you can rev hard and springs are cheap. But for my build I sourced a set of dual valve springs off a 4K race motor for $50. SO cleaned them and ready to use.

 

Also free length of solid lifter springs are 465mm hydro lifter springs run 48.0mm so with hydro lifter 5K springs a bigger cam can be run with out worry of all the issues you can have and can rev harder.

 

Rocker gear stock BUT I removed the springs and put solid spacers in there so at high RPM lifters wont walk sideways on valves :'(

 

As for timing chain I got dual row. But I am still out weather or not to DIY a old gear for cam to make it adjustable or get a roller masters adjustable kit for a K motor. There kit is NICE machined gear not cast and LIGHT as so think Ill go that option. Over 100$ though.

 

Cam I got 2 3K cams and will get them reground to a grind I want. Is $100 per grind on them. Ill go a grind for NA then boost so later when SC14 is on it will be sweet.

 

Pistons. ACL ones cost price $200 for a 5K so I think I can bargin a place down on them. If not hypertech will be next stop I think. As sound good. If you use stock pistons but use JDM ones. I have a set in the shed ill have to dig up the photos but more meat on them better cast etc seem stronger. But you can run 4age pistons in a5K there lighter adn the gudgeon pin is futher up in the piston so the weight of it is lower down so in turn it "slaps" lesss and make less load on the motor so there a good option will rev VERY hard then.

 

Intake. I got a SU LYNX manifold from a guy who restores mini he got it wanted carbies on it I offered $10 for manifold he said ok as he can't use it. So I will use this.

 

SC14 piping. Got for free 2 inches with silcon hoes bend and all.

 

SC14 sourced with HS6 SU ready to bolt into a K motor $80. So that was cheap.

 

Crank pulley I am using a 4k-U/5K one dual row harmonic balancer in it. Will jsut blast it and prob get it restored new rubber that is it. Also 5K harmonic balancers run a different position timing mark to 4K-C motors so don't run a 4K-C or 3K-c etc cam cover with the degrees on it with a5K/4K harmonic balancer. I am using the harmonic off the 4K-U I got it with its cam cover so I get marks right.

 

Dizzy. I will run electric one but get it re graphed to suit. They have different weights etc in them to sedan motors points dissy so they make more torque down low for a van. I want this changed. So regraphed to suit my cam. Cost about $160. Coil. Will get GT40 from wrecker $10.

 

fuel pump just an electric one easy.

 

Water ump I have been talking at work about a electric one jsut because I can. so thiking that now.

 

Also altornator I will wire in a switch to it to drop the 12V to the field so it makes no power. This greatly unloads the motor so for racing/hooning..LOL flick of switch less load on motor more power at wheels. When I want it back turn it on and wham charging again. Old hot rodder trick.

 

This is what I'm doing. As you can see I have sourced all parts CHEAP as possible over time. Cleaned them all my self doing what mods I can my self. Using people I know who can mod stuff like electro plating, shot peening etc to get parts moded free/ beer/cheap. Then my engine builder who I know well will mates rates if I supply finished parts assemble for $200 with a warrenty. So If I get him to do head and assemble adn finsih a part or two this will stay cheap. I know for a K motor head to regrind stock valves to suit and 3 angle valve job is $55. So he does work cheap.

 

This way I hope to go cheap but NOT nasty and get a nice motor.

 

Now for valves. I will use stock 4K-u ones. The motor was a JDM ones. I am told later Aussie K motors got shit steel valves. JDM motors got nice stainless valves. So using my JDM valves with regrind. I figure SC will force air in and when it is NA initially cleaned up ports will help a tad.

 

If you want I KNOW gemini valves slightly moded will fit a K motor. But takes so labor so cost might get high. But Gemmini valves are fairly large so flow is great for a K motor and there pretty much as large as you can go on a K motor so size to aim for.

 

Also From some info I have kicking around. This is why to use solid lifters than hydro ones.

 

"Well when you get a modified cam profile(lumpy cams bro)they grind away the base circle of the camshaft to obtain the new modified profile so the lifter runs lower in the block,now if they have taken off so much as for the lifter to run out of its "reserve"ie the distance between the lifter cup and its retaining clip you`re going to have problems which would necesitate the creation of a new hydraulic pushrod ie one that is longer.

Secondly a hydraulic lifter weighs more and therefore will induce "valve float"sooner than a solid lifter.

Thirdly a hydraulic lifter at high rpm suffers what`s called "pump up"this is where the engine is doing high rpm and the oil pressure is high and the lifter basically pumps up "extends itself"and wont let the valve get back onto its seat producing a misfiring situation.

Forthly a hydraulic lifter doesnt produce as much manifold vacuum due to running zero valve clearance and will act like a wilder camshaft than the same camshaft would on a solid lifter."

 

 

That is me for now sure Ill think of more later.

 

Cameron

[Clapped out]

although the whole motor was well into the 4 figure territory, it was "worth" a great deal more due to the development that went into it that I didn't pay for.

 

Budget and this type of build are not two words you would use together.

 

Lucky you, i had to pay for mine, lol! The money it cost me all up i could have gone for a conversion,

 

cheers phatke30!

[Doogs]

Ok here is a rundown on the valve port sizes for different k series heads:

 

K bigport: 30-31mm inlet ports. 34mm/28mm in/ex valves

3k bigport: 30-31mm inlet ports. 36mm/29mm in/ex valves

3k/4k smallport: 24-25mm inlet ports. 36mm/29mm in/ex valves.

4k/5k dished piston: 27-28mm inlet ports. 36/29mm in/ex valves.

 

 

 

Airflow through the valves is the determining factor on how much a head can flow. There is not that much meat between the valves to be able to enlarge them very much. What superjamie is getting at, was that for the increase in capacity of a 5k over a 4k, there isn't the same percentage increase in valve area.

 

Also note there wasn't an increase the distance between the valve centers when the capacity went from the 4k to 5k.

 

Thanks felix, this helps a lot. :'(

 

When i get around to talking to the guy who is doing my head i will

keep it in mind.

[Doogs]

MM lets see.

 

Under the bonnet of my daily a 3K running 496,000KM. Revs to 7 soem days and record is 5.6L of fuel used in a119km long trip to work (that is return) in Brisbane at 6am. That was 2 weeks ago. If I use the liquid noise pedal more well it will dwindle to over 9L used..lol

 

My KE15.

Picked up a rebuilt 5K never run sitting in a car (got the car to) for $30. Guy just lost interest. Has stock springs (will explain why more down page) and slight bore ACL shallow dish pistons shaved head (200psi per cyclinder now. Stock is 159 PSI that is also pending K motor some differ). and a tidy up. Went well while I ran it in the Ke30 now it is in the ke15 about to get going again. It now has K-B twin carbies, pacemaker extractors thermo fan smaller altornator, solid lifters (4K-u Prods and 3F Toyota lifters).

 

Now...While I work on getting the KE15 on the road I am building another 5K. This one I plan to be good on economy, reliable, but quick and fun at the same time. So far I am collecting parts. I am in no rush to do this so I can save as much money as possible.

 

Now I got a free 5K block. This motor was rebuilt and then a new piston cracked. sat in a car till I got a hold of it. But was stripped as I needed the block posted from NT to QLD. That cost $75. This I have acid dipped, cleaned threads witha tap, and be burred internals of it from casting, cleaned out oil galleries, also got best studs for sump I had installed etc so jsut cleaned it up.

 

I got a oil pump out of a 4K. NOW oil pumps in a van 5K are different to sedan K motors so you need a sedan one to run a sedan pump. I have lapped the pump to really tight clearences. Messured up about 5 different oil pumps I collected and got the body that had the smallest internal cavity size still, biggest outer gear and biggest inner gear and shaft. Then it made the pump tighter and man it pumps oil doing the hand pump test OH oil flows really well. With a 2.5mm shim. Also I polished the pump. Cost free. Also lock wired pump up and will lock wire it into the motor so no chance of it coming apart..LOL

 

Next I got a 4K-U running motor donated to me. These push rods are needed to run 3F lifters in a 5K with out having to mod your rocker gear (to use normal 4K-c rods you need to mod your rocker gear). So out of this motor I got conrods, crank, flywheel, push rods, rocker gear, dished piston head, oil filter housing, sump.

 

All those parts sump acid dipped baffles weld in at work and currently working on getting it chrome plated so it is slippery (also looks good) so oil slides easy in it. Cost free metal, free welding, mate owns electroplating shop so free chrome dipping.

 

Oil filter housing polished it, drilled out the holes larger so it flows more. DONE free

 

Conrdos. Will get ARP stud kit (about $80) and I will linish them and shot peen them. I can linish for free and possibly get shot peening at work for free pending so again strong and free. I didn't touch the big end or gudgeon pin end as they were all still in spec and flat and tru so stock rods are good.

 

Crank. So far just cleaned up. hoping to knife edge. We also do this at work so if I get spare time that will be done. Then all I have to pay for is balance.

 

Flywheel. Got faced at work. sending to re builder to get it balanced to a heavy duty clutch so it is nice.

 

Head off 4K-u. Now dished piston motors have HEAPS better combustion chambers so I am sticking with this instead of using my 3K bigport head. As dish piston heads are slightly larger ports so more air will flow in but it wont have an as low velocity like 3K big ports (as you need some velocity there. This can give more torque having higher velocity) So that is why I'm using this head. I will let an engine shop do this but I plan to polish exhaust ports, just clean up intake, new guides, 3 angle valve seat job and polish combustion chambers. I am going to run a SC14 so I will polish my combustion chambers as I'm going to run dished pistons with dished head and possibly slightly higher CR than stock so if i can limit carbon build up I get less chance of pinging.

 

Valve springs. Well stock 3K-C runs 70.1lbs pressure. This revs to 6600RPM stock. 3K-B got 77lbs springs and can rev to 7500RPM stock. So you don't need super hard springs to rev a K motor much harder. Now all K motor with hydro lifters got 77.2lbs springs also. So if you run stock hydro 5K springs with your motor you can rev hard and springs are cheap. But for my build I sourced a set of dual valve springs off a 4K race motor for $50. SO cleaned them and ready to use.

 

Also free length of solid lifter springs are 465mm hydro lifter springs run 48.0mm so with hydro lifter 5K springs a bigger cam can be run with out worry of all the issues you can have and can rev harder.

 

Rocker gear stock BUT I removed the springs and put solid spacers in there so at high RPM lifters wont walk sideways on valves :hmm:

 

As for timing chain I got dual row. But I am still out weather or not to DIY a old gear for cam to make it adjustable or get a roller masters adjustable kit for a K motor. There kit is NICE machined gear not cast and LIGHT as so think Ill go that option. Over 100$ though.

 

Cam I got 2 3K cams and will get them reground to a grind I want. Is $100 per grind on them. Ill go a grind for NA then boost so later when SC14 is on it will be sweet.

 

Pistons. ACL ones cost price $200 for a 5K so I think I can bargin a place down on them. If not hypertech will be next stop I think. As sound good. If you use stock pistons but use JDM ones. I have a set in the shed ill have to dig up the photos but more meat on them better cast etc seem stronger. But you can run 4age pistons in a5K there lighter adn the gudgeon pin is futher up in the piston so the weight of it is lower down so in turn it "slaps" lesss and make less load on the motor so there a good option will rev VERY hard then.

 

Intake. I got a SU LYNX manifold from a guy who restores mini he got it wanted carbies on it I offered $10 for manifold he said ok as he can't use it. So I will use this.

 

SC14 piping. Got for free 2 inches with silcon hoes bend and all.

 

SC14 sourced with HS6 SU ready to bolt into a K motor $80. So that was cheap.

 

Crank pulley I am using a 4k-U/5K one dual row harmonic balancer in it. Will jsut blast it and prob get it restored new rubber that is it. Also 5K harmonic balancers run a different position timing mark to 4K-C motors so don't run a 4K-C or 3K-c etc cam cover with the degrees on it with a5K/4K harmonic balancer. I am using the harmonic off the 4K-U I got it with its cam cover so I get marks right.

 

Dizzy. I will run electric one but get it re graphed to suit. They have different weights etc in them to sedan motors points dissy so they make more torque down low for a van. I want this changed. So regraphed to suit my cam. Cost about $160. Coil. Will get GT40 from wrecker $10.

 

fuel pump just an electric one easy.

 

Water ump I have been talking at work about a electric one jsut because I can. so thiking that now.

 

Also altornator I will wire in a switch to it to drop the 12V to the field so it makes no power. This greatly unloads the motor so for racing/hooning..LOL flick of switch less load on motor more power at wheels. When I want it back turn it on and wham charging again. Old hot rodder trick.

 

This is what I'm doing. As you can see I have sourced all parts CHEAP as possible over time. Cleaned them all my self doing what mods I can my self. Using people I know who can mod stuff like electro plating, shot peening etc to get parts moded free/ beer/cheap. Then my engine builder who I know well will mates rates if I supply finished parts assemble for $200 with a warrenty. So If I get him to do head and assemble adn finsih a part or two this will stay cheap. I know for a K motor head to regrind stock valves to suit and 3 angle valve job is $55. So he does work cheap.

 

This way I hope to go cheap but NOT nasty and get a nice motor.

 

Now for valves. I will use stock 4K-u ones. The motor was a JDM ones. I am told later Aussie K motors got shit steel valves. JDM motors got nice stainless valves. So using my JDM valves with regrind. I figure SC will force air in and when it is NA initially cleaned up ports will help a tad.

 

If you want I KNOW gemini valves slightly moded will fit a K motor. But takes so labor so cost might get high. But Gemmini valves are fairly large so flow is great for a K motor and there pretty much as large as you can go on a K motor so size to aim for.

 

Also From some info I have kicking around. This is why to use solid lifters than hydro ones.

 

"Well when you get a modified cam profile(lumpy cams bro)they grind away the base circle of the camshaft to obtain the new modified profile so the lifter runs lower in the block,now if they have taken off so much as for the lifter to run out of its "reserve"ie the distance between the lifter cup and its retaining clip you`re going to have problems which would necesitate the creation of a new hydraulic pushrod ie one that is longer.

Secondly a hydraulic lifter weighs more and therefore will induce "valve float"sooner than a solid lifter.

Thirdly a hydraulic lifter at high rpm suffers what`s called "pump up"this is where the engine is doing high rpm and the oil pressure is high and the lifter basically pumps up "extends itself"and wont let the valve get back onto its seat producing a misfiring situation.

Forthly a hydraulic lifter doesnt produce as much manifold vacuum due to running zero valve clearance and will act like a wilder camshaft than the same camshaft would on a solid lifter."

 

 

That is me for now sure Ill think of more later.

 

Cameron

 

Thanks cameron, an interesting read.

 

Unfortunately i will not be able to get things done anywhere near

as cheap as you, so i might have to cut some corners. :'(

I will probably only use oversize slugs if the bores are shot, and

bigger valves if i can afford it.

 

I am thinking about putting in a bigger sump, or just baffling the standard one.

 

Have you found baffling the standard one to be sufficent ?

 

Thanks for more advice on lifters, i think four good reasons is enough

to convince me to switch to solids !

 

Do you have any pics of your car ?

I would be keen to see a few.

 

Thanks again :lol: ,

 

Dougal

[coln72]

solid conversion - a lot of stuffing around for little gain.

 

As I said before, I had no issues running beyond 8000 rpm with hydrolics. Basically unless you are chasing BIG revs, I feel it is more wank value.

[Doogs]

solid conversion - a lot of stuffing around for little gain.

 

As I said before, I had no issues running beyond 8000 rpm with hydrolics. Basically unless you are chasing BIG revs, I feel it is more wank value.

 

I was considering just getting a set of anti-pump lifters, but am unsure. :'(

 

I won't be going further than 8 grand in this car, in fact it won't go much higher than

7 because my cam will probably run out about then.

 

If you reckon it is good for that i think i will go without, to save a bit of

dough and then if i have a prob i will fix it.

 

coln72, were you running baffles in your sump for the race car, or was it just standard ?

Edited February 16, 2008 by Rad Rolla

[coln72]

standard - never had any issues with oil pressure. Only issue I had was when I was doing motorkhanas with constant right hand (I think?) corners. The oil would pool in the rocker cover and end up being sucked into the engine through the manifold. Instant smoke screen. Shit myself when it first happened :'( . I was waiting for the death rattles, but all was good. A catch can would have fixed it but it was so infrequent I couldn't be stuffed.

[toyota_ae71]

sorry :'( but off the topic about the valve springs do holden ones fit straight in no modifications (4k-c)? if so which ones should be used? and does it change your rev range at all??

 

cheers Corey

[Doogs]

standard - never had any issues with oil pressure. Only issue I had was when I was doing motorkhanas with constant right hand (I think?) corners. The oil would pool in the rocker cover and end up being sucked into the engine through the manifold. Instant smoke screen. Shit myself when it first happened :'( . I was waiting for the death rattles, but all was good. A catch can would have fixed it but it was so infrequent I couldn't be stuffed.

 

It was just that i am considering doing hillclimbs, and one

of my mates was suggesting i would need a bigger sump (or baffling)

to allow for the oil sloshing to one side through corners,

(to ensure i get a constant supply).

 

But once again, if i don't need it i won't spend the money :lol:

(as the saying goes, ''if it aint broke, don't fix it !'')

 

Thanks

Edited February 16, 2008 by Rad Rolla